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Talk:United Left/Manifesto
What do you mean by social democracy? Hoffmann KunarianTALK 15:17, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Continuing my constructive criticism, you state the left implemented regulatory laws that helped us through the current recession, what regulatory laws are these? Stopping my constructive criticism and making a few points: Also nice to see that you're continuing the whole class war idea with UL again, discrediting those who achieve and not leaving your Union relations behind, at least now we can say this is truly a socialist party! And the part where you go "United Left will always act in the interest of the working class not through schemes which actually benefit the rich" then go "A party which can always be on your side and fight for the whole of society, is United Left". That one there, tickled my funny bone. Once again the party that you can trust with your support and minor votes will not be UL but the CNP, one of the actual parties that fights for the whole of society. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 16:26, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Insults will get you nowhere, Hoffmann. And Marcus, do you really think that UL needs a manifesto. We are not communist, and basic viewpoints will do better than big fancy speeches which just bring us down to the level of the squabbling right. 17:03, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :I am not insulting you, I am making people aware that nothing has changed and I am pointing out where you are going back on yourself, highlight a point where I insulted you. You may feel hurt I've pointed these things out, but that's not an insult. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:11, July 30, 2013 (UTC) ::It's not a personal thing, your lauching a tirade at the party without even bothering to grasp that it is a new and completely changed direction just annoys me. Analyze this paper all you want, but the party is going towards a broader left direction, a real alternative to the right and to extreme left. HORTON11: • 17:15, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :::It doesn't seem to be doing anything different though, it is not a completely changed direction, give me an example of a different policy please. Prove yourself right, because I still see the same party members as before, the same Unionism and the same class dividing going on. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:35, July 30, 2013 (UTC) I always find the whole "Leftist started the class war" hilarious. Because the defenders of capitalism in its "hands off form", is you right? Okay, and this form of no government in the private sector and letting Business grow, pretty much happened in Ireland, America, and United Kingdom. The same economic policies created huge economic inequality, a housing crash, and lack of jobs, so yeah those same policies you defend are pretty much creating inequality. And yeah, yeah, I get it you know the arguments and so do I, i'm bored with it. If you want to call it war then that's your term, not mine. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:07, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :But those aren't my policies though, those are neo-liberal policies, I do not defend them. Stop with the straw man arguments. Also you do, no one else makes ridiculous claims like you do about the upper class, middle class and working class. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:24, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Don't worry your manifesto it filled with those too, little hilarious tidbits of conservativism and nationalism that makes any leftist laugh. The same old recycled, "Big Government is Bad Government.", and claiming economic and social freedom is the same. At least we can clearly say this is truly a far-right Conservative Nationalist party, and its even in the name how helpful. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:07, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :A far-right party? hah! So wanting complete equality for gays lesbians and bi-sexuals is far-right? I expect you to order them to be culled then. And what about wanting to create greater equality in education? is that far-right? I can't wait for you to add a mandatory fee to education then so that only the rich can afford anything of quality. And my name? Nationalist as in civil nationalism, proud of our nation and wanting to protect the cultures within it? is that far-right? you sir are a master of straw man arguments that fail once more. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:24, July 30, 2013 (UTC) But you'll go anywhere on a leftist page and try to point it out wrong, it's what you've always done. I'm use to it. (Here comes vague statement trying to show that I think I've won) Once again the party that you can trust with your support and minor votes will not be the CNP, but UL, one of the actual parties that fights for the whole of society. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:07, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :So how do you prove that? by being hypocritical in your manifesto? or by pretending that you've made a point in a positive manner about your rebranded Labour Party? Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:24, July 30, 2013 (UTC) (There was an edit conflict) And I agree, of course I disagree with you Hoffmann, and you even know that, so whats the point of keep trying to pick these fights. Someone like you should at least respect though that a party will try to write out, in full detail our party policy, unlike most Parties in Lovia. The term "manifesto" is actually just a party platform or ideology written in full detail, if the term offends i'm sorry. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:07, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :I do respect it and because of that, I'll leave you and Horton to your discussion after having made my comments. Think about them and try and correct some points in your manifesto, you know other people will notice the hypocrisy, and the Union links and etc. and they'll know I'm right that this is just rebranded Labour. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:24, July 30, 2013 (UTC) ::I find it offensive you are still trying to make everyone believe this is Labour. This is a completely different party and direction, why else did youthink I left Labour in the first place? If UL were Labour I would not be here. HORTON11: • 17:28, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :::I HAVE, no argument started or was being negative until you came. You always state your postive and the one above the fray, yet your the one always in the fray saying your not. Show some hypocracies, whatever. I was just pointing that out when you said that line about using votes for the CNP and not UL, again you do play dirty you just act like you don't. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:44, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :::But it is still the same, I repeat what I've said to your other reply. It's all the same old, same old. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:35, July 30, 2013 (UTC) I don't find it offensive, but it just so associated with communism it may give off the wrong impression of our party (that and I also would like to distance the party from the extreme left). HORTON11: • 17:10, July 30, 2013 (UTC) I wouldn't exactly call it a fight, or offensive. The debate goes on as long as there are different ideologies. I just want to correct you Marcus, "Big government is bad government" classifies as more libertarian stance that conservative or nationalist, therefore, the CNP isn't at all "far-right". If anything, we can vouch for your socially progressive aspects, so don't hate. This is the part where I offer a third-way solution, whisper PL gives votes in everyone's ear, and sneak off quietly. :) — Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat • ) 17:28, July 30, 2013 (UTC) : Well I like your stance on modern politics and what you're going for with PL. I find that most parties here, from Labour to CCPL to CN are too narrow-minded and are/were focused towards a specific segment of the voting population. What I would like to do with UL is transcend these borders and just better help a greater society. Maybe we should try some sort of cooperation to transcend these tiny niches of support and just support the wider population. HORTON11: • 17:42, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :: In the same manner that I would seriously doubt a rightest party would take a leftist party's suggestions, i'll take yours. I'll take my chances thanks, though. Horton your party head so you can change the name. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:44, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :::But Horton how can one party represent everyone? it can't. Lots of Niche party's all debating different alternatives for each issue that faces Lovia means that we get the best range of ideas. The key to it is when these party's co-operate. I get the feeling that UL is not trying to transcend niches and borders but force one viewpoint on everyone else. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 18:13, July 30, 2013 (UTC) ::::But that's what every political party does, don't act like it doesn't. I could actually say the exact same statement about the CNP. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:16, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :::::Speak for yourself, your party can try and force its views without debate but I like to get an idea of what other people think. I've proven this in my many times as Governor when I've asked for other peoples opinions, held referendums (such as the one on the flag) and taken other peoples suggestions (such as the recent one to do with a tram network. I also have been the first to make a democratically elected State Council and have never planned to 'appoint' people to positions because I'm afraid of a debate unlike members of your 'new' UL. So no you can't say the same about the CNP. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 18:20, July 30, 2013 (UTC) ::::::There was an official flag referendum, because there wasn't. Also i'll add that taking people's suggestions if they fit your own views or opinions like the tram network, if your for that, isn't bending your own views just finding someone to find support from. Yeah and I supported the state council idea for many years now, and i've never said i'm afraid of debate. And yeah it is the same, you state its above the political fray and heat, that it can change the political attitudes but plays right into it. Again this is how every situation goes: I make leftist page or group, ONLY PERTAINING TO LEFTISM, NO ONE ELSE, and you come in act like there's a problem yet there isn't at all, you don't actually add in constructive criticism, you did that for about two seconds and then I reply back. You start several arguments and start to heat things up, but constantly act like your above it claiming that the UL or whatever it is, is automatically wrong and the CNP is right, but I forgot you are so inclusive. Then you make a claim like "The UL is trying to get away from borders" or "is a socialist party" and again when I reply to that you start more arguments. Its getting old, i'm tired of it. But again you'll act like you were above the political arguments and mudslinging, for whatever reason, and make the UL or me look like the bad guy, I get it, this isn't the first time, more like the fifth or tenth, for no reason. Again i'm done with it, just delete it. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:35, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :::::::There wasn't a flag referendum? Oh marcus, people remember and look here, strange that, I took other peoples opinions over my own... And bending my views? hardly! I asked them to persuade me of their idea and they did. So what? when someone persuades me of an idea and I agree with it it's really me just pandering for support? I guess I better not agree with anyone then for fear of making you think I'm pandering. I have added in constructive criticism and I have made a point that this just seems to be Labour rebranded, which you should read as "I need to make my ideas more clear and show that this isn't Labour rebranded" not just try and brush it off. And that's strange I am inclusive aren't I, I'm asking CCPL, PL and the GP and UL if you'll cooperate a coalition in Sylvania to get key bills passed, working with other parties, isn't that what you keep on talking about? And this isn't an attempt to make you look like the bad guy, I'm simply raising awareness about how little seems to have changed. If you think you're being seen as the bad guy that's not my fault. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 18:49, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :::::::::Okay there was a quick referendum on issue, not held officialy, I do remember that. If that was what all the time you take up starting things and arguing for was to quickly mention "Hey guys this is a labour rebranding" then it took a damn long time. I remember reading from your first comment "and the constructive criticism is stopping", i never thought it continued, my bad. And I am talking about inclusion, but I never stated I wouldn't want that, and then you say "isn't that what you keep talking about?" It is! So then if you know it, and I do, don't come and act as if i'm not, you just think I'm not off some random assumption. I'm pissed because you always start things like this for no reason other than to argue, please excuse me for being mad at that. If that makes you think i'm not inclusive, then sure I'm not inclusive to that. And finally again you think you've raised awareness, thanks for the public anouncement, and that again is my point you think your doing this for the better of society, then okay you've helped thanks. And no I say you paint out to make me look like I am, never did I admit I was the "bad guy". Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:05, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :Sneaky campaigning I like it! Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:35, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Can I just say that the changes Horton just made have improved it a lot already. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:40, July 30, 2013 (UTC) (So many edit conflicts, and it doesn't help with the breaking up of comments) Yeah but what I don't get is how you would never take a leftist parties suggestion, yet we should morph to yours? I don't even get it anymore, just random arguments started just let it be. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:47, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Guys, you're all wrong.. You'd better vote CCPL instead of UL or CNP :P And to get to the narrow-minded bit: CCPL is - party indoors - the most liberal/broad-minded party. Read Website: www.ccpl.lo/Constitution: everything marked with * is optional, and we have probably one of the most elaborated party policies. Apart from that, CCPL was started as a testimonial party - just to let the Christian voice be heard in Congress; when it was started it was meant to be narrow-minded. However, we got a bit larger through the years :P --OuWTBsjrief-mich 18:18, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Ugh, i'm done -_- he comes in claims hes above it all, then starts a fight and then wonders why were bickering. Just delete it, i'm done with it, you can take it over justin. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:22, July 30, 2013 (UTC) -Oos: "CCPL is... the most liberal/broad-minded party." I'm done. :D — Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat • ) 19:16, July 30, 2013 (UTC) A party being Christian, center-left, liberal and broad-minded at the same time? Some of those terms sound a bit contradictory. :P 77topaz (talk) 19:29, July 30, 2013 (UTC) :Just look at all of the stuff that is morally permissible! — Christopher Costello (Pikapi • Chat • ) 19:34, July 30, 2013 (UTC) ::@liberal: not in its policies, but it is when it comes to party structure :) @contradictory: yeah, those last two terms aren't with regards to policy. CCPL is of course not a liberalist party, nor are we to be considered pragmatic or very progressive :P --OuWTBsjrief-mich 19:35, July 30, 2013 (UTC)